03/03/2022

Thrice-A-Weeklies & Limiting Content

When I talked about the systems changes that were meant to be coming with Legacy of the Sith, I mentioned that one of the more low-key changes that I was worried about was that daily and weekly missions were now always going to be removed from your log if you hadn't completed them by reset time. I dreaded this because pretty much all of my characters have been in the habit of carrying half-completed weeklies around with them for months and even years, to finish "one day" when it suited me.

Now, I'm happy to say that the reality of this change hasn't actually bothered me at all. In fact, it was really refreshing to log into various characters after the expansion launch and find their quest logs almost empty. What pleasant decluttering! What new-found clarity of purpose! I actually dig it.

Also, with all the complaining about UI changes, I'd like to say that I quite like the little clock displays that they've added to dailies and weeklies in the mission tracker to give a visual indicator of how much time you've got left until they reset. It's very clean and clear.

Another change that came with this and which I hinted at in my first post about Galactic Season 2, but which wasn't really clearly communicated beforehand, is that many weeklies now have lower requirements for completion but can also be done three times a week instead of just once. I do think that both of those things are overall beneficial to players. For example, the weekly PvP mission used to require ten wins, but now it's only four, which makes it more realistic to complete within a week and lessens the pain of being unable to carry over progress from one week to the next. And the fact that you can do it more than once a week is nice if you're really into a specific activity (such as PvP), as it means that you can earn rewards on the same character repeatedly instead of having to switch to an alt. Nonetheless I can't quite shake the feeling that it's all a bit weird and unintuitive. I wouldn't expect something called a "weekly" to be repeatable three times a week. Not that I have a good alternative name; it just feels strange.

There is another facet to these changes though, and that is limitations on PvE content. This seems to be tied at least in part to the new gearing system, but I'm not sure that was the sole reason for the change. Over the course of ten years and with level sync in place for almost everything, SWTOR has become a pretty broad game. Not everything is equal in terms of effort vs. reward - or how fun it is for that matter - but simply put, there's a lot of content that you can do that will benefit your character in some way and never becomes completely irrelevant. I generally think that's a very good thing, but I can definitely see some downsides to it too: such as new players being overwhelmed by choice and feeling directionless, or existing players becoming too spread out across different kinds of group content to keep queues popping reliably.

What I'm trying to say is, I can understand the basic impetus behind funnelling players into a more limited number of activities at specific times, and that is exactly what Bioware has done. Nothing's strictly gone away or become inaccessible, but for example only certain daily areas are featured in the activity panel from one week to the next. If you want to do any of the others, you have to travel there manually and will get significantly fewer rewards for your efforts.

As far as daily areas and heroics are concerned, I guess I don't really care as I'm not someone who runs these a lot either way, and for operations something similar was already previously in place in the form of the featured group finder operation, which changed every week. However, for flashpoints I feel this change has honestly been kind of bad. SWTOR has over thirty flashpoints at this point in the game's life, all of which can be level synced, and I think that's actually a great selling point for players who like this sort of small group content. But there's a reason people were clamouring for an automated group finder back in 2012 - because they don't like having to rely on manual group formation or having to be in a guild in order to do group content nowadays. With that in mind, taking the majority of flashpoints out of the group finder in a given week comes pretty close to making them inaccessible, and that sucks.

It's made worse by the fact that Bioware has stuck with the change they made in 6.0, which was to limit access to flashpoints based on their original level, despite of the ability to scale characters upwards (which was why my little Nautolan Shadow that I levelled at the start of 6.0 saw way too much of places like Hammer Station initially, because she just didn't have access to much else). Thing is: With this new system you can't level a character through flashpoints anymore even if you were happy to mostly be limited to Hammer Station, because a lowbie might not have access to any flashpoints in the group finder for 50 levels.

Case in point, in week one, every single one of the nine flashpoints up as part of the limited rotation had a minimum level of 50, meaning that if your character was below that you saw nothing in the group finder. I actually found out about this because I was driving around the Lower Promenade on Nar Shaddaa when a random 30-something character whispered me to ask if I knew why he couldn't access any flashpoints. I thought it was a bug at first and even reported it as such, until I read up on it and it slowly dawned on me that this was apparently working as intended.*

At least as far as flashpoints are concerned, I just can't agree with this change at all, and I can only hope that Bioware will at least reconsider it. Especially as I think they could still achieve what they seemingly wanted to do with this update by perhaps adding a tab called "featured" or something to the group finder, which has the flashpoints of the week in it, which give special rewards, and then have the rest in a different tab or something. Players would still be incentivised to queue for the featured flashpoints in that scenario, but at least lower level players or those who simply want to do different content wouldn't be completely locked out of the ability to find others to play with.

*Update: Apparently at least this particular change may not have been intended, or they changed their minds about it quickly. Either way a fix allowing low-levels to queue for flashpoints again is meant to come with patch 7.0.1 according to Keith's latest post on the forums.

18 comments :

  1. As far as weeklies go, I just view it as having up to a week to complete it. I think we've just gotten used to the idea that a weekly only happens once a week. Now things are broken up into three 'bite-sized' quests a week. That change just feels better. For example, for whatever psychological reason, doing 12 PvP wins over 3 weekly quests feels less stressing than trying to complete one 10 PvP win weekly. I like having those 'stages' where I have a sense of completion and can opt out of doing more weeklies if I don't have the time or feel like doing more.

    As far as flashpoints go, yeah the current design sucks. I can see limiting the flashpoints for levels 75 and up because of endgame gearing, but 1 - 74 should have a separate queue of all the available flashpoints. If you want to level a tank or healer via flashpoints you're screwed. (You're were also sort of screwed because of Veteran mode flashpoints if you wanted to work on your role, but that is a separate issue.)

    ReplyDelete
  2. Oh yes.

    I HATE the whole change of limiting content - and, thing is, Weeklies for Daily areas that AREN'T on the week's roster simply don't show up, and you can't do it. So if you want to get the sense of story completion of working through each part of the Section X weekly as you prepare to run Oricon story, or find yourself investigating Czerka and it's little moon of irregularities, you may *not* get the whole picture/be sure you did every quest.

    While I do enjoy limiting the amount of daily areas a bit so that we have a more lively area with mroe epeople playing together, not being able to "walk up to" Daily areas annoy me -- say what you will about FPs, at least you can still walk to them, and Heroics are Heroics whenever. But the lack of access to the daily area weeklies feel like a slap in the "perfect story order completionist's" face.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ah, I hadn't actually checked whether the weekly missions for the daily hubs that aren't featured are even available, and I hadn't thought of the way some of the little story quests associated with these areas have "complete the X weekly" as a required step. That does indeed mean that this part is also more annoying than I thought.

      Delete
    2. TBF, apart from CZ198 which I know isn't on the terminal, I haven't checked if other weeklies are available on the terminal. And it's not even just the story quest saying "complete weekly x" (which must've been changed), but that the weekly gave you a checkmark so that you wouldn't end up *missing* some of the content! And in some places - say, Section X - it's REALLY EASY to miss, for example, the AREA mission and subsequently the HK questline because you wouldn't just walk there normally. :)

      Delete
  3. I don't see the big fuzz about GF changes. We basically have this implemented for OPs since years now, and the complains from people quieten down. This will happen with the GF changes for flashpoints too.

    People will adjust to this change and will rediscover the entrances for the instances, if they feel the urge to play something, that is currently not available for them.

    Apart from that, i'm pretty sure some metrics from Bioware shows, that the people are leveling their toons through story, and only a tiny proportion of people are using flashpoints to level up.

    And for all the folks that liked to run HS 24/7 on their max level toons... i love the forced diversity. It's OPs GF changes all over again. Absolutely positive.

    You need to force people out of their comfort zone. You can't develop every year thousands of new flashpoints, just so that people run HS every single day and ignore everything else. How will you justify this to EA?

    "How is this new flashpoint doing you developed? People like it?"
    "aehm... we don't know!"
    "You don't know!? Why? How?"
    "People just do the story version and after that they run HS."
    "HS?! The 11 year old flashpoint? If people don't do the new content, we will cut budget for next expansion."

    And this is why we have an 2 hour story expansion for the big 10 year anniversary without new planets to explore.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. People will adjust to this change and will rediscover the entrances for the instances.

      It seems unlikely to me that we'll return to a world of people happily going "LFM Athiss" in general chat. That kind of thing may work for something like WoW Classic, but for a game that purports to be a modern MMO getting ready for the next decade, it's quite a step backwards.

      i love the forced diversity

      Didn't you say you uninstalled? Not sure you should be the target audience for these changes then. :P

      And I wouldn't be surprised if people spamming Hammer Station factored into Bioware's decision to make this change. I found that annoying too, and the way it pretty much forced me to untick HS whenever I queued for flashpoints if I didn't want to be funnelled into what the community deemed the most efficient way to farm gear (while also complaining about how boring it was).

      The thing is though, that only became a problem with 6.0 because the gearing system rewarded it. And I'm OK with Bioware removing that reward and incentivising people to run other content. No need to lock players out though.

      Delete
    2. "No need to lock players out though."

      And Bioware's solution is... sending lvl 20 into the Nathema Flashpoint.

      Honestly i don't know, what is going on over there. Sometimes i think, that each expansion they replace the complete Dev team.

      Didn't we already established in the past, that low levels in high level flashpoints was worse than no flashpoint at all? How can you do the same mistakes over and over again?

      I guess we wait for this fix, the complains when it's on live, and after that the fix of the fix.

      Delete
    3. Well, I liked having access to all the vet flashpoints as a leveller during the 5.x patch cycle... challenges and all. :P That was was easily the most fun time to level through that content. So I'm fine with that coming back.

      Delete
    4. "So I'm fine with that coming back."

      You are a Nightmare Veteran Raider.

      I doubt, the masses changed their mind since the last time, when four level 20s already had countless deaths on their way to the first boss.

      Delete
    5. Considering that the whole "level 20s into Nathema" had already been fixed in the last expansion, I have not a clue what ground you think you're standing on...

      Delete
    6. @Diana

      Do you talking to me?

      Did you miss the announcement, that they will reverse this?!

      "level 20s into Nathema" is a thing again. This will come with the next big patch on March, 22nd.

      Delete
    7. source: https://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=10015070#edit10015070

      "Veteran Mode Flashpoints in Group Finder can now be queued by all players at level 15+."

      They do not change the rotation. They just made the rotation flashpoints available for all players. lvl15+ in Nathema.

      Delete
    8. Well, it seems they've already gone back on that again: 7.0.1 Rotation Removal

      Delete
    9. Ja, i saw that yesterday.

      But honestly, it baffles me that we had to remind them, that their first idea with "lvl 15+ in Nathema" was an already failed idea from an earlier attempt.

      At least they got it right before going live with it and the next wave of complains.

      Delete
  4. I was playing early enough to remember the days of LFM Athiss. Really, really don't want to go back to it. GF has been convenient to mix up my leveling because it means I can be in-queue between quests. Standing on fleet just doesn't work the same way. It feels like a waste.

    Unfortunately, Bioware's answer to this is to remove level gating for flashpoints. On PTS, a level 15 character can groupfinder into any flashpoint for the week (Including Ruins of Nul). According to recent dev posts, this is intended. I don't think that's going to be a good solution.

    I got together with 3 guildies on PTS and we dropped our 15s into GF Nul (Scoundrel, Vanguard, Merc, & Mara). First boss was fine (if hectic). Second boss was unclearable. You just don't have the abilities to cheese *or* clear the add waves between cores. After several wipes, our scoundrel guildie left and re-queued in to our group as a level 80 pyro pt in full gear, and successfully carried us through the rest of the flashpoint, but I don't know if any of us would call it "fun."

    If they're intent on this rotation system, availability should probably be expanded, but I don't think dropping 15s into content intended for 70+ is the answer. Maybe a tiered access system would work.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I was quite happy with SWTOR not having a group finder at launch, but I was in a guild and levelling was much slower. I do not think that telling people to just go into most flashpoints manually is a sensible stance to take in 2022.

      The thing with allowing access to all flashpoints from level 15 is that it gives so much choice. Sure, a hypothetical scenario with four level 15s being put into Nul at random would be bad, but I always wonder how likely that really is to happen, because as you also observed, even one high level player can be enough to carry the rest through. (Also, the second boss in Nul seems a bit overtuned on all difficulties to me personally. I even died there during my first time doing it on story mode, lol. But that's an aside.)

      I wouldn't be upset if they decided to go with the system they had during Onslaught where the flashpoints are still gated by their original level requirement in group finder. But I also can't claim that being locked into Kuat and Hammer Station for god knows how many levels was more fun to me than the potential risk of maybe getting a really bad group comp for a higher level flashpoint sometimes.

      Delete
    2. As a clarification: the level 80 in question was an experienced pyro player in 330 rakata + augs. A bit more than your average pug xD. Given my experience with how VM pugs are struggling on live, you may understand my skepticism as to its viability.

      More to the point, I'm not a fan of placing the expectation that a higher level player effectively solo a flashpoint while the lowbies run koltos. That seems unfair to both the higher player (who has to carry) and the lower players (who are unable to effectively contribute). With some gating, you know the flashpoint you are entering was designed with roughly your toolkit in mind.

      Don't get me wrong: I love the choice of opening things up... to a point. But when there are only 7-9 flashpoints available every week, the likelihood of a gf pop not being able to clear increases, imo. This week was Athiss, the czerkas, lost island, rishi, chiss, nathema, and nul.

      Athiss and the Czerkas I think are appropriate for just about anyone as long as you follow mechs. Lost island is iffy with lowbies in the mix. Chiss, Nathema, and Nul? Eeeeeeeh....

      As much as I hated spammer station, gating + rotating is clearly not working, but I'd rather have gating but no rotation than rotation but no gating.

      Delete
    3. Players with low level characters complained, because they had no flashpoint available.

      But we had also players with max level charactes that complained, having to run "hard" flashpoints like Lost Island in Veteran.

      The assumption, that one high level character could and should carry three low levels, is therefore not a given thing. We just have too many complains from players, that wanted HS back.

      And from my own in experience in the first week of 7.0... i was on my f2p account, lvl 60, two out of three flashpoints were Lost Island... with three max lvl players... i had to do the explanations and the carry.

      Even if four low levels in one high level flashpoint is not very likely, the odds are in favour of more complains.

      Delete

Share your opinion! Everyone is welcome, as long as things stay polite. I also read comments on older posts, so don't be shy. :)